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	<title>Comments on: Criticisms of 4th Edition</title>
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		<title>By: Matthew</title>
		<link>http://incrediblevehicle.com/2009/01/12/criticisms-of-4th-edition/comment-page-1/#comment-97</link>
		<dc:creator>Matthew</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 Jan 2009 15:55:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://trahari.wordpress.com/?p=322#comment-97</guid>
		<description>Heh. Well, I can&#039;t make any promises, but I am working on something that&#039;ll give me some data on this. If I have any interesting conclusions, I&#039;ll be sure to write about them.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Heh. Well, I can&#8217;t make any promises, but I am working on something that&#8217;ll give me some data on this. If I have any interesting conclusions, I&#8217;ll be sure to write about them.</p>
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		<title>By: Wyatt</title>
		<link>http://incrediblevehicle.com/2009/01/12/criticisms-of-4th-edition/comment-page-1/#comment-98</link>
		<dc:creator>Wyatt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 Jan 2009 04:02:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://trahari.wordpress.com/?p=322#comment-98</guid>
		<description>I think it would be interesting to see. Personally I&#039;m not much of an optimizer. When I come up with a concept I just do it, without caring much about the numbers. With 4e I&#039;ve noticed that this tends to work out for me – even in a party with some hardcore guys who get their act together much better than me, I don&#039;t feel left behind, even if I am a Dwarf Wizard or an Elf Warlock. (As you said, with weapon-using classes, you can just pick a high-proficiency weapon and catch up pretty well.)

However, I don&#039;t deny that those discrepancies do exist. My Dwarf Wizard capped at an 18 Int, at character generation, and that&#039;s because I purchased it to start with! An Eladrin Wizard could easily have 2-4 points more than me, which is a +2 to hit and damage over what I could do. So I&#039;d like to see a post going in-depth about these discrepancies, and whether they&#039;re big downers, irrelevant, and if that bad, how to fix them. I&#039;m working on a campaign setting with a whole roster of new core races, so this kind of information is really useful to me, and it&#039;d be nice to hear it from somebody who doesn&#039;t seem like the &quot;hardcore optimizer&quot; type. Somebody who can really speak to me. I think that&#039;s you, if you&#039;d be up for it. ;)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think it would be interesting to see. Personally I&#8217;m not much of an optimizer. When I come up with a concept I just do it, without caring much about the numbers. With 4e I&#8217;ve noticed that this tends to work out for me – even in a party with some hardcore guys who get their act together much better than me, I don&#8217;t feel left behind, even if I am a Dwarf Wizard or an Elf Warlock. (As you said, with weapon-using classes, you can just pick a high-proficiency weapon and catch up pretty well.)</p>
<p>However, I don&#8217;t deny that those discrepancies do exist. My Dwarf Wizard capped at an 18 Int, at character generation, and that&#8217;s because I purchased it to start with! An Eladrin Wizard could easily have 2-4 points more than me, which is a +2 to hit and damage over what I could do. So I&#8217;d like to see a post going in-depth about these discrepancies, and whether they&#8217;re big downers, irrelevant, and if that bad, how to fix them. I&#8217;m working on a campaign setting with a whole roster of new core races, so this kind of information is really useful to me, and it&#8217;d be nice to hear it from somebody who doesn&#8217;t seem like the &#8220;hardcore optimizer&#8221; type. Somebody who can really speak to me. I think that&#8217;s you, if you&#8217;d be up for it. ;)</p>
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		<title>By: Matthew</title>
		<link>http://incrediblevehicle.com/2009/01/12/criticisms-of-4th-edition/comment-page-1/#comment-102</link>
		<dc:creator>Matthew</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 Jan 2009 02:17:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://trahari.wordpress.com/?p=322#comment-102</guid>
		<description>@Wyatt:
That&#039;s a good point re: solo monsters and stun effects--- I&#039;d forgotten about that. It might not be *too* bad if those effects are &quot;save ends,&quot; if only because most solos appear to have ridiculously high save bonuses, meaning that the effect probably won&#039;t last for much beyond a round.

The more I think about it, the more I think I might be off-base on race/class combinations as far as stats are concerned. It might be worth sounding this out in a separate post, just to think out loud. On the other hand, maybe I can come up with something a little more systematic &amp; simultaneously leverage my meager coding skills.

But basically it seems reasonable that every race should be a top-tier contender (e.g. 20/16) in one or two builds, and a second tier (e.g. 18/16) contender in a bigger number of others. I&#039;m not sure whether that&#039;s the case, but I suspect that some races fare better than others.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Wyatt:<br />
That&#8217;s a good point re: solo monsters and stun effects&#8212; I&#8217;d forgotten about that. It might not be *too* bad if those effects are &#8220;save ends,&#8221; if only because most solos appear to have ridiculously high save bonuses, meaning that the effect probably won&#8217;t last for much beyond a round.</p>
<p>The more I think about it, the more I think I might be off-base on race/class combinations as far as stats are concerned. It might be worth sounding this out in a separate post, just to think out loud. On the other hand, maybe I can come up with something a little more systematic &amp; simultaneously leverage my meager coding skills.</p>
<p>But basically it seems reasonable that every race should be a top-tier contender (e.g. 20/16) in one or two builds, and a second tier (e.g. 18/16) contender in a bigger number of others. I&#8217;m not sure whether that&#8217;s the case, but I suspect that some races fare better than others.</p>
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		<title>By: Matthew</title>
		<link>http://incrediblevehicle.com/2009/01/12/criticisms-of-4th-edition/comment-page-1/#comment-101</link>
		<dc:creator>Matthew</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 Jan 2009 01:28:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://trahari.wordpress.com/?p=322#comment-101</guid>
		<description>@Hammer: I suppose that&#039;s fair, though you&#039;ll have to bear in mind that I wasn&#039;t so big into 3.x. I&#039;m used to a very different ratio of fluff to crunch, and the amount of in-depth crunch on here has been a bit shocking for me.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Hammer: I suppose that&#8217;s fair, though you&#8217;ll have to bear in mind that I wasn&#8217;t so big into 3.x. I&#8217;m used to a very different ratio of fluff to crunch, and the amount of in-depth crunch on here has been a bit shocking for me.</p>
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		<title>By: Wyatt</title>
		<link>http://incrediblevehicle.com/2009/01/12/criticisms-of-4th-edition/comment-page-1/#comment-100</link>
		<dc:creator>Wyatt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 Jan 2009 17:21:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://trahari.wordpress.com/?p=322#comment-100</guid>
		<description>I agree a bit on conditions. I think some monsters, like the Gibbering Orb, go WAY too far, dazing guys every single turn and all manner of other dickery. I also up front don&#039;t like stun. Not as a DM or as a PC. As a DM, it makes high level solos a joke. In the epic tier when a Solo should be a devastating force of nature, it feels like it&#039;ll just be stunned with Legion or something else and be utterly destroyed. (Which is why I often give my very important guys immunity to Stun and Sleep, so they can&#039;t just be invalidated instantly). As a player, Stun is terrible. Immobilize isn&#039;t that bad, there are some things you can do as a melee character to prepare for that. But Stun is just, ugh.

I&#039;m curious, which races do you think suffer most from lack of optimizeable choices? What would you do with them? I&#039;m big on making my own races, and race balance and strength always interests me.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree a bit on conditions. I think some monsters, like the Gibbering Orb, go WAY too far, dazing guys every single turn and all manner of other dickery. I also up front don&#8217;t like stun. Not as a DM or as a PC. As a DM, it makes high level solos a joke. In the epic tier when a Solo should be a devastating force of nature, it feels like it&#8217;ll just be stunned with Legion or something else and be utterly destroyed. (Which is why I often give my very important guys immunity to Stun and Sleep, so they can&#8217;t just be invalidated instantly). As a player, Stun is terrible. Immobilize isn&#8217;t that bad, there are some things you can do as a melee character to prepare for that. But Stun is just, ugh.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m curious, which races do you think suffer most from lack of optimizeable choices? What would you do with them? I&#8217;m big on making my own races, and race balance and strength always interests me.</p>
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		<title>By: Hammer</title>
		<link>http://incrediblevehicle.com/2009/01/12/criticisms-of-4th-edition/comment-page-1/#comment-99</link>
		<dc:creator>Hammer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 Jan 2009 13:53:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://trahari.wordpress.com/?p=322#comment-99</guid>
		<description>I don&#039;t think too many books will be a problem. Remember, D&amp;D 3.x issued individual books for each class with loads of new variations. The consolidation of these into three core books (Martial, Devine, Arcane) is a big step forward, while classes/powers/rituals/etc in the mainly DM orientated books like MoP, Open Grave etc will be up to the GM to include as they wish.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t think too many books will be a problem. Remember, D&amp;D 3.x issued individual books for each class with loads of new variations. The consolidation of these into three core books (Martial, Devine, Arcane) is a big step forward, while classes/powers/rituals/etc in the mainly DM orientated books like MoP, Open Grave etc will be up to the GM to include as they wish.</p>
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